An observation on seat belts...

[Jennings]

I've been flying for over 30 years, and looking at (well, okay, ogling) airplanes for longer than that. It is my observation that it is EXTREMELY rare to see seat belts neatly draped one atop the other in perfect symmetry. About 90% of the time, modelers do just that. Shoulder belts hanging neatly down the back of the seat, lap belts neatly criss-crossed on the seat pan (and of course all of it very pretty and clean).

The position of the seat belts is the *last* thing on a pilot's mind when he/she leaves the cockpit. As often as not the shoulder belts are flung backward or to the sides, and you just want to get those lap belts out of the way so you can move your *** out of the seat. They usually end up hanging over the sides, or all twisted and scrunched up at the back of the seat.

Unless you happened to have a crew chief who really cared, and who took the time to reposition the belts after every flight, you'll almost never see them looking all neat and tidy.

Just an observation, since we otherwise strive for the n'th degree of detail and authenticity..

J

[Aigore]

I agree....I always try to mess up the belts a bit to give them a bit more "lived in" impression .

[Mark M.]

As you scale down the object, the relative flexibility of the item in question reduces until the item is quite hard to manipulate.

Meaning a real belt is a highly flexible and light thing that'll flop anywhere.... Scale it down to 1/72 or 1/48 and all of a sudden it's 100% fixed, rigid, and "un-flopping"...

It's a problem of the medium and the hobby, IMO, not so much one of imitating life. I'd noticed that a long time back, but the problem is that if you're working in thin plastic stock it really doesn't want to bend, curl, curve, and whatnot. It's just too hard to make the belt in a realistic position, so I settle for an easily noticable position. I choose the best facsimile I can.

My reasons are well thought over (I mean, to me) and I've come to live with the end result.

[11bee]

As you scale down the object, the relative flexibility of the item in question reduces until the item is quite hard to manipulate.

Meaning a real belt is a highly flexible and light thing that'll flop anywhere.... Scale it down to 1/72 or 1/48 and all of a sudden it's 100% fixed, rigid, and "un-flopping"...

It's a problem of the medium and the hobby, IMO, not so much one of imitating life. I'd noticed that a long time back, but the problem is that if you're working in thin plastic stock it really doesn't want to bend, curl, curve, and whatnot. It's just too hard to make the belt in a realistic position, so I settle for an easily noticable position. I choose the best facsimile I can.

My reasons are well thought over (I mean, to me) and I've come to live with the end result.

Jennings has a very good point, I've always thought that perfectly aligned seatbelts detract from a model. It is tough to get PE belts to drape naturally when you get down to smaller scales. I found that heating them first gives you more flexibility and then you just have to slowly fold and glue the belts until you get them to a realistic position. Can't vouch that this will work on 72nd scale parts but it is doable on anything larger. Just takes some time and patience.

[PlasticWeapons]

As you scale down the object, the relative flexibility of the item in question reduces until the item is quite hard to manipulate.

Meaning a real belt is a highly flexible and light thing that'll flop anywhere.... Scale it down to 1/72 or 1/48 and all of a sudden it's 100% fixed, rigid, and "un-flopping"...

It's a problem of the medium and the hobby, IMO, not so much one of imitating life. I'd noticed that a long time back, but the problem is that if you're working in thin plastic stock it really doesn't want to bend, curl, curve, and whatnot. It's just too hard to make the belt in a realistic position, so I settle for an easily noticable position. I choose the best facsimile I can.

My reasons are well thought over (I mean, to me) and I've come to live with the end result.

I find that if I make seatbelts in thin plastic, I can make it bend and fold realistically by brushing on some Testor's liquid glue to soften the plastic. Be careful brushing on too much though.

With Tamiya tape seatbelts, I make the belts then dip them in water and soak up the excess water on a paper towel. While soggy, you can bend and fold 'em any way you wish. Or attach one end to your seat with superglue and wet the belts a little with water applied with a brush and bunch up/fold/bend them to how you want.

Well, that's what I do. Others may have a different technique.

[Lenny]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Everytime I leave the cockpit I cross the seatbelts and straighten up for the next pilot. I've been doing it for the last 20 years. I learned that early on in flight school. 99% of the time I find it clean and straps crossed. Just common courtesy for your fellow pilots.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Lenny

[Karl Sander]

Perhaps I've been spoiled by good PC's but the shoulder straps, lap belts, and leg restraints have always been arranged rather neatly when I've preflighted a cockpit.

[Aaronw]

I was taught to buckle the seat belt behind me as I left the helicopter.

[vince14]

Got to admit, I was taught to tidy and buckle them as I left the aircraft and that's how I've usually always found them. When I don't find them neat and tidy, I always question how the previous pilot treated the aircraft - after all, if he can't be bothered to tidy the belts what else did he not bother to look after? Having said that, the same might not be true for an operational wartime aircraft - and I always leave the belts on a model a little out of shape as well, as I think it tends to add to the 'realism' of the cockpit i.e. it makes the cockpit look 'used' and less 'model-like'.

Vince

[selwyn]

Jennings

As a Ex RAF technician I can tell you that after every flight the official servicing procedure for military aircraft is to visually inspect all seat straps, (Ejection seat or otherwise) for damage or twists, they are then lengthened, stowed /positioned in an approved manner so that the next aircrew (and crewman who assists in the strap in process) knows where all straps are to enable them strap in safely and correctly and adjust them as required.

I would go as far to say that on military aircraft it would be highly unusual to see untidy straps.

To illustrate what can happen if the straps are not stowed correctly on an ejection seat I personally witnessed a incident when a groundcrewman working in a Harrier cockpit threw a strap over the top box of the seat to gain access, but omitted to tidy it up after the job was completed. Unknowingly The buckle of the strap had lodged on top of the seat MDC striker block. this initiates the canopy MDC when the seat begins to rise on ejection. when the canopy is closed there is only a small gap between the block and the canopy MDC initiator. When he closed the canopy it initiated the canopy MDC. Fortunately his guardian Angel was working overtime, he was VERY lucky to get away with only minor injuries.

In another incident a strap buckle caught under a seat ripped a hole in the seat rocket motor when the seat pan was motored up. luckily the rocket did not initiate, if it had it would have killed the seat occupant.

ALWAYS Tidy your seat straps!

Selwyn

[Aigore]

Perhaps you can vary.....depends on how you want to model your kit, is the pilot about to enter the tub then prolly the belts are pretty tidy, if you model it after a pilot´s left the seat it might look different? or the pilot had to rush to the toilet real quick...... you see where I´m going? different situations different looks.

Then there is the modelling factor...it does look more lived in and alive if the the belts are in a tad of disarray, might not look the same in real life but it might enhance the feel of the model.

[11bee]

Good points made by some real pilots but I still feel that the straps need to show some flex and wrinkling at minimum, instead of rigidly protruding from the seat cushion at a 90 degree angle as seen on some models. I highly doubt the departing pilots would take out a ruler and make sure that they left the seat belts completely identical in placement.

Also, having seen pictures of earlier aircraft, I think there may be more attention paid to proper placement of seatbelts nowadays vrs back in earlier times.

I guess it ultimately comes down to artistic preference. I prefer the straps to be in a bit of disarray just because it makes the cockpit look "lived in" and IMHO, more visually interesting.

[Hal Marshman Sr]

One thing you younger hobbyists don't realize is how thick the belts may be. For the modern jet, you're modeling nylon belts, not too very thick, pretty much like those in your car. For those of us that model WWII birds, the belts were made of cotton webbing, and an individual belt might be more than 1/4 inch thick. Thickness represents strength. I like to make mine from surgical tape. Good scale thickness, and mildly textured. Curity brand is ribbed, making a nice effect when painted. Then, some planes had leather, again, thick. Hal Sr

[ALF18]

As a semi-retired former military and civilian bizjet pilot, I can say that seat belts are rarely found perfectly arranged and symmettrical.

On the other hand, they should not be left looking like a pile of clothes on the floor of a teenager's bedroom. There are practical considerations, especially when it comes to avoiding problems when ejection seats are adjusted up/down (belt buckles binding can be quite damaging and/or dangerous), as well as ensuring key switches are not moved or poked with straps, and also making sure nothing is in the way of the canopy when it closes.

Groundcrew (and considerate pilots) usually leave some straps in very precise positions. A good example is the leg garters on some ejection seats. In CF-18 usage, there are little blue straps with metal attachment rings that pilots clip into a strap in the calf portion of the G suit. Fishing around for that on the cockpit floor is not a fun task when sitting in the seat. For that reason, everyone will ensure that the little rings and blue straps are neatly positioned near the front of the seat cushion. Not exactly symmettrical, but in most scales indistinguishable from symmettrical.

So bottom line: most operational cockpits have a bit of a lived-in look, but there is actually more order than there is chaos in the world of professional aviation (which is more full of obsessive-compulsive people than we think - good, solid habit patterns have kept me alive so far!).

ALF

[Julien (UK)]

Jennings

As a Ex RAF technician I can tell you that after every flight the official servicing procedure for military aircraft is to visually inspect all seat straps, (Ejection seat or otherwise) for damage or twists, they are then lengthened, stowed /positioned in an approved manner so that the next aircrew (and crewman who assists in the strap in process) knows where all straps are to enable them strap in safely and correctly and adjust them as required.

I would go as far to say that on military aircraft it would be highly unusual to see untidy straps.

To illustrate what can happen if the straps are not stowed correctly on an ejection seat I personally witnessed a incident when a groundcrewman working in a Harrier cockpit threw a strap over the top box of the seat to gain access, but omitted to tidy it up after the job was completed. Unknowingly The buckle of the strap had lodged on top of the seat MDC striker block. this initiates the canopy MDC when the seat begins to rise on ejection. when the canopy is closed there is only a small gap between the block and the canopy MDC initiator. When he closed the canopy it initiated the canopy MDC. Fortunately his guardian Angel was working overtime, he was VERY lucky to get away with only minor injuries.

In another incident a strap buckle caught under a seat ripped a hole in the seat rocket motor when the seat pan was motored up. luckily the rocket did not initiate, if it had it would have killed the seat occupant.

ALWAYS Tidy your seat straps!

Selwyn

Quite often with Tornados I have seen the straps placed over the head box when they knew people were about to get in.

Julien

[jester292]

I have to say that I've always been told to (and have made a good habit of) neatly lengthening and draping the seat belts and shoulder harnesses when I leave the aircraft for the next crew.

And I wouldn't say that its the last thing on my mind when I leave the airplane. Before leaving the airplane there are a number of things to do to have it ready for the next crew.

Aaron

[Edgar]

Gentlemen, I think you need to cut Jennings a bit of slack, here; it's all very well talking about correct behaviour, in peacetime, when you have time to do your springcleaning, before handing the aircraft over to the next occupant. In times of war, things would be very different; imagine a Spitfire/Hurricane/Mustang/etc. pilot dashing to his aircraft, putting on his parachute, then sitting down on top of his harness. It wouldn't happen; lapbelts would be dangling under the seat, and the shoulder straps would be out of the way, too. If you look at some photos, you'll clearly see the shoulder straps hanging over the cockpit sill(s.)

Back in the 1970s, I went (twice) to Alconbury, for a conducted tour of their Agressors facility, and distinctly remember noting how the lap straps had been laid on top of the side consoles, and the shoulder straps tossed back over the headrests. We saw the same on an F-111 at Upper Heyford, and Lightnings at Binbrook.

Edgar

[jester292]

I don't think anyone is saying it doesn't happen.

Aaron

[ross blackford]

:), As an ex-groundie I have to agree with SELWYN. Part of the turn around or afterflight servicing was to neatly place the shoulder straps right over left on the top of the head box where the next pilot and ground crewperson could get at them easily. If we had left them untidy (and as said above, there was a certain order the shoulder straps were to be laid out in over the headbox) and the lap belts were to be neatly placed over the sides of the cockpit on a turnaround and on an afterflight the lap belts were placed left over right. If we didn't lay them out in this order we got a good kick in the derierre. I know there are always going to be exceptions to any rule but I think most military forces would have things not just looking neat but loking neat for a good reason. What Jennings has said in his first post may be true of civilian aircraft but even when working on C-130s there was a certain order. When I was learning to fly 30 odd years ago as a civilian student pilot we not only had to straighten our own belts but those of any instructor who'd just flown with us snd fasten the belts if we had the last flight of the day..

,

Ross.

Edited October 16, 2010 by ross blackford

[Yuri]

A easy way to simulate seatbelts in 1/72 is using aluminium foil (kitchen foil). Cut it into strips and just place it with some white glue.

As others said... even the most neatly placed belts should be at least a little "out of place". It works far better than masking tape or photoetched belts: it drops and bends more easily...

Edited October 16, 2010 by Yuri