Kittyhawk 1/48 Mig-25

[dehowie]

Great work guys!...

[ijozic]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?54716-MiG-25-PD-cockpit-pictures-and-Intrument-Identification

Thanks. Both of the supposed "PD" cockpit photos seem to match the PE cockpit part the KH marked as "PDS". Perhaps the KH "PD" cockpit screen is for a recon or some other variant which carries no air to air radar so there's no radar scope provided.

[Modelmkr]

Late to this discussion... have my kit coming from Lucky.

Looking at the instructions (posted in the other thread) it shows the option to arm this with FAB1500 and/or FAB500 bombs. This seems to be wrong to me. The MiG-25 PD/PDS, being an interceptor, would only be armed with air-air assets would it not? I believe the capability to carry bombs was only with the MiG-25RB variants; is this correct?

Marc B.

[Jennings]

Yes. Interceptors intercept. Bombers bomb. That's the least of the kit's problems.

[Modelmkr]

Yes. Interceptors intercept. Bombers bomb. That's the least of the kit's problems.

:lol: I'm well aware of it's other problems... been reading the various threads here and on Britmodeller.

KH seems to have a real problem "accessorizing" their kits with proper weaponry... unless it's French ;)

Anyway, one more note to go on the shopping list of corrections/ mods/ omissions.

Marc B.

[ya-gabor]

It is perfectly understandable if they do a common sprue for all the weapons for all the types they plan to release but the usual thing to do would be for the manufacturer to say "this or that is not to be used for this kit". But here they state that they should be used on the kit.

Best regards

Gabor

[Inquisitor]

It is perfectly understandable if they do a common sprue for all the weapons for all the types they plan to release but the usual thing to do would be for the manufacturer to say "this or that is not to be used for this kit". But here they state that they should be used on the kit.

Best regards

Gabor

And unlike correcting the CAD or even the molds, editing the instruction manual's design to add a note and shade the parts not used before sending to the printer takes even less work.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Inquisitor

[ijozic]

There is a build thread on Cybermodeler..

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/builds/kh/build_kh_80119.shtml

[Floggerman]

It is perfectly understandable if they do a common sprue for all the weapons for all the types they plan to release but the usual thing to do would be for the manufacturer to say "this or that is not to be used for this kit". But here they state that they should be used on the kit. :bandhead2:/>/>

Best regards

Gabor

But this is best Chinese tradition: think of the RS-2US on MiG-21F-13 or R-24 on MiG-23M/MF.. (sarcasm off) Or is it simply Mr Song's tradition? At least we get a lot for the sparebox. (and funny models like this: http://modelkitsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/trumpeter-mig-21f-13-6.jpg)

Edited November 26, 2013 by Floggerman

[Petarvu]

But this is best Chinese tradition: think of the RS-2US on MiG-21F-13 or R-24 on MiG-23M/MF.. (sarcasm off) Or is it simply Mr Song's tradition? At least we get a lot for the sparebox.

Interesting paralel.

I would also add the following:

As much is Trumpeters MiG-23 better than old Esci kit

That much KH MiG-25 is better than old Revell.

Both kits have enormous potential and both were Mr Songed.

P

[Floggerman]

Interesting paralel.

I would also add the following:

As much is Trumpeters MiG-23 better than old Esci kit

That much KH MiG-25 is better than old Revell.

Both kits have enormous potential and both were Mr Songed.

P

100% agree. It's an endless discussion, I know.... But it's also part of our fun as model builders, isn't it? I mean, if we can claim "I found the mistake, ha, ha" so our research was better than theirs. I like that. But I also like to see model companies like GWH improving, learning, listening and offer better value for the (increasing) money. Just my 2 €-ct.

[sharkmouth]

But it's also part of our fun as model builders, isn't it? I mean, if we can claim "I found the mistake, ha, ha" so our research was better than theirs. I like that. But I also like to see model companies like GWH improving, learning, listening and offer better value for the (increasing) money. Just my 2 €-ct.

No, never was it part of my fun. As someone who wrote reviews, I pointed out many of the areas for improvement without taking a "I found the mistake, ha, ha so our research was better than theirs" approach. I simply pointed out what was wrong and what, if anything, could be done about it. Then I went out and sought aftermarket companies to provide products and gave them the research to back it up. None of this was funny, humorous, belittling, degrading, or malicious. I was taught to give constructive criticism or none at all. On another forum some are suggesting Viktor Belenko's aircraft (to cover the model under a tarp) or an Iraqi one (which was buried in the sand). Pretty useless comments with regards to this kit as the posters offered no suggestions to better the model, only to hide it.

When I write that I want to see a company improve, I get involved. Posts such as those by Gabor are enlightening even if they have a lot to say about what is wrong because the posts are backed up with photographs and knowledgeable attention to detail. Using his posts, I redid my vertical fins and worked on the fuselage. Really not difficult work but then, I have been a modeler for many decades. These hands have built and corrected many ancient kits where simple modeling tasks like sanding, filing, filling, fitting, and scratch building are techniques I not only expect to use, but enjoy. I am not so close to my expiration date that I need a model which practically falls together. I'll admit that I don't look forward to complete rebuilds like the Revell MiG-25 found on this forum but this is nowhere near that project in correcting.

We all have our approach to the hobby. I seem to not expect as much as other rivet counters (of which I am admittedly one) other than a sound accurate shape from which I can enjoy the model building (not assembling) experience.

My two USless cents,

Edited November 28, 2013 by sharkmouth

[Aigore]

There are few excuses for model companies to not produce an accurate representation with today's information flow and prototyping technologies. .. so when a company fails to deliver, by cutting corners and not researching properly, they should be called on their mistakes. Either to encourage them to do better or to point out the flaws in their company philosophy towards their customers!

[ijozic]

On another forum some are suggesting Viktor Belenko's aircraft (to cover the model under a tarp) or an Iraqi one (which was buried in the sand). Pretty useless comments with regards to this kit as the posters offered no suggestions to better the model, only to hide it.

But pretty good jokes, IMHO :)

[Flankerman]

On another forum some are suggesting Viktor Belenko's aircraft (to cover the model under a tarp)

If you are referring to my post over on Britmodeller...... it was done tongue-in-cheek (hence the emoticon)

I was trying to inject a little humour into what was becoming a rather heated discussion.

But I clearly failed.......

Ken

[sharkmouth]

But I clearly failed.......

Ken, I did get it since my first thought was what to do with the Revell kit. However, after spending the money on the MiG-25 kit, I want to make the corrections. Instead, I smiled but then realized how many people must think I am a fool for having spent the money on it and still be willing to spend more on aftermarket for it. I guess this never crosses the minds of some. The kit is here, in pieces, being built (not assembled as I am looking at replacing things, modifying others, and so on).

Today is Thanksgiving in the US. I sincerely am thankful for most of the posts. Being mature enough to shake the chaff offered in many posts allows me to keep the grains I can use. I am grateful for the kit even though I do wish they had included full intake trunking. Mistakes are easier for me to fathom than omissions,

In many threads, I read about people stating that companies should do better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the mistakes and backing them up so the reader sees what is being mentioned and can decide whether to correct it (if they have the kit or are considering it), live with it, or decide it is something they cannot accept and pass on the kit (if not already purchased). I did contact Kitty Hawk to show them the MiG-25 threads of their kit in the hope that they will see who has knowledge on the subject (maybe tap their shoulder?) and prepare for the next release. Without encouragement (only berating) a company has no reason to listen to our rather vocal minority and may brush us aside as a nuisance. This is what we need to be careful of, the tone of the thread.

There are many knowledgeable people here on the Internet and I readily seek out all posts by Flankerman, Berkut, Ya-Gabor, and others whenever I am looking at my latest Russian/Soviet model. I know what to expect from them. Since I read Russian and am a bit fluent in Polish, many of the references mentioned may be in my library (if a decade or more older) or I will blindly buy it since it is what they mention as reference. I learned these languages (amongst others) many years ago and my library includes tomes from Eastern Europe. For the last decade, I have limited myself to AFVs but now feel the need to return to my aircraft roots (as I am a graduate of Aviation High School in New York City) and build some of this overgrown stash as well as some of the new kits with the sharkmouth markings I have accumulated over the years.

Returning to the subject of this thread. I see that aftermarket wheels will be available. Also, intake trunking is being considered but, being printed, may be excessively expensive for me. PE will probably come from some companies so I may look at FOD covers since they will obscure the lack of trunking, the exhaust issue, add a red accent which is fine with the color of the number and sharkmouth of the subject I have planned for it. Having replaced the KM-1 seat in my Eduard MiG-21 kit, I am thinking of using the leftover kit seat for this. Doing so allows me to rework the exterior (something I enjoy) and hopefully add a respectable model to my collection. Since most aftermarket is not available yet for this kit, I am taking my time on the exterior.

Regards and enjoy your Holiday (if today is one for you),

Edited November 28, 2013 by sharkmouth

[ya-gabor]

The Kitty Hawk MiG-25 kit was available today at the Plastic Zima in Bratislava for anything from 60 Euro to 75. Expensive kit, just as the other KH kits on sale.

Well,no comment. . . For the moment.

Best regards

Gabor

[MoFo]

I see that aftermarket wheels will be available. Also, intake trunking is being considered but, being printed, may be excessively expensive for me.

Resin wheels will be available. Resin intakes will be released as well. As will replacement exhausts. In fact, I'm fairly certain that at least two companies are working on both intakes and exhausts. In resin.

Cost-wise... I mocked up a simple CAD model of the intakes and uploaded it to Shapeways. Shapeways are one of the cheapest ways to print reasonable quality (reasonable; not, great) parts. *My* cost would be $54 That's without any kind of markup. Changing to a lower res material, I *could* get the price down to $38, but I don't know if that would be an acceptable print quality for modellers, and would mean less detail for the compressor faces. Realistically, that means you're probably looking at $50 - 70, retail, for a set of 3D printed intakes. Just as an FYI. I have absolutely no idea what resin intakes would cost, but it's got to be noticeably cheaper.

[sharkmouth]

Well,no comment. . . For the moment.

Oh, no! After helping me start a list of corrections going on my model, there is no reason to stop! /> Please keep going and don't tell me to hide my model. I was REALLY disappointed when you gave up on the Trumpeter MiG-21F-13 list after measuring the real thing. I had my note pad (CTRL+C to copy) ready. If you ever return to that kit, let me know. I bought extra Eduard MiG-21PFM Overtrees thinking I may combine the kits so I only need worry about the fuselage (cockpit from NeoMega, wheels from Eduard Brassin, Master pitot tube, QuickBoost scoops) but may have to work on vertical tail as well.

I admit I have been sensitive (alreight, VERY sensitive) but only because I have spent a lot of money I could use elsewhere (Christmas is around the corner). Feeling like I wasted it depresses me. I will make the most of this model but I do need the input of experts and those with eyes for details like you, Berkut, Floggerman, etcetera, regardless of youre opinions of the kit (as long as you back them up with photographs, they are opinions based on facts and not feelings).

Resin wheels will be available. Resin intakes will be released as well. As will replacement exhausts. In fact, I'm fairly certain that at least two companies are working on both intakes and exhausts. In resin.

Cost-wise... I mocked up a simple CAD model of the intakes and uploaded it to Shapeways. Shapeways are one of the cheapest ways to print reasonable quality (reasonable; not, great) parts. *My* cost would be $54 That's without any kind of markup. Changing to a lower res material, I *could* get the price down to $38, but I don't know if that would be an acceptable print quality for modellers, and would mean less detail for the compressor faces. Realistically, that means you're probably looking at $50 - 70, retail, for a set of 3D printed intakes. Just as an FYI. I have absolutely no idea what resin intakes would cost, but it's got to be noticeably cheaper.

Thanks for the glimmer of hope. Hopefully these AM items will be available after I pay my Christmas bills! />

Regards,

Edited November 30, 2013 by sharkmouth

[ya-gabor]

Hi Sharkmouth,

It was a long day yesterday, with getting up at 5AM to get to the Bratislava show, so by the time I was home in the evening there was little else that I could care about than going to bed. As said before you have to hold the kit in your hand to be able to make a better judgement about it.

Now that it is here, I can say that my opinion has not changed about it, if only further in the negative way. I dont plan to build it but write the articles about it, help some manufacturers with some sets to go with the kit and eventually sell it, just as I did with the Revell kit few years ago. I see on the kit some details which were not visible on the photos.

As to the MiG-21F-13 kit, there are a lot of things to do, I am not in a hurry and having seen the new Eduard MiG-21PFM and R versions in kit form as well as the fact that the PF is coming next spring, I am sure they will make a very nice F-13 even if it will take some time, there is plenty kits to do till then! So the F-13 was put on a back burner.

At the Plastic Zima show there was an amazing set of sprues on display for a 32nd scale version of the Gloster Meteor. WOW, now that is what I call kit design!

The Plastic Zima show was great and I would like to thank our Bratislava friends for organizing it!

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

A look at the content of the box to start with. First the big fuselage parts. On my kit both the top and the bottom fuselage parts were warped as shown on the photos. The top has a distinct longitudinal warp while it should be completely straight. This results in an almost 4 mm gap at the center when it is dry fitted to the bottom part. Well, the question is if you can fit it to the bottom part. This one is warped too, only this time the side walls of the fuselage lean outwards. On modelforum.cz someone else had the same problem with the bottom. This is easy to correct, (even if it should not be there in the first place) by applying slight force when gluing it to the top part. Now the top part warp is not so easy to correct. Anyone with a good idea? An internal strengthening rib glued to the top part?

Best regards

Gabor

[Space Tiger Hobbes]

Is it not possible to glue tabs to the mating sides to line those up as well as provide additional surface area to press down the warped fuselage half or maybe heat in some hot water and press down on a flat surface before gluing? That's disappointing quality control but not fatal. I'd be glad to test out those techniques if anyone would like to send me a kit.

[sharkmouth]

I'd be glad to test out those techniques if anyone would like to send me a kit.

No need to send you my kit as I glued the tabs and it worked although I did not have the fore to aft warping to the extent shown.

Note that Kasatka didn't seem to have this amount of warping either:

Click image to see post on other thread...

Regards,

Edited December 2, 2013 by sharkmouth

[Jennings]

I'm a lot less concerned about warping that you can fix with glue than I am about major and very basic inaccuracy in the kit itself.

[ya-gabor]

I think the contrarotating R-15 engines was a bit of joke from Mr. Song of Kitty Hawk. It is a nice one anyway!!! :) :D

Seriously, I don’t think you will see much of it when fully assembled, especially with the afterburner flame holder rings in place. The biggest problem comes with the flame holder rings itself. The lack of research or a simple stupid mistake by the designer is the problem here since the rings were made the wrong way around on the kit.

They are shown on the kit as a conical part. The fact is that the afterburner flame holder rings (parts F1 and F2) are concave on the real R-15 engines and the real MiG-25 aircraft. A simple solution could be that you turn them around, but then you will lose all the details on it (including the long ejection pins left on the parts). The flame holder ring is a big part with around 25 millimeter diameter and all that detail is shame to waste. Also this is something that is very visible on the finished kit.

A bit more complicated solution would be to cut up the parts into separate rings and reverse them into a right order to make the rings in a concave form. None of this solutions are perfect, more research in the first place from the manufacturer would have been necessary and maybe some consultation (or listening to some advice) and real attention to detail!

Here are the kit parts:

and here is the instruction sheet showing what is what, but it is wrong unfortunately!!

Best regards

Gabor