1/48 Eduard MIG-21 MF Bis SMT

[bungynik]

I was *so* hoping we wouldn't get into this discussion yet again, for the umpteenth time. If it doesn't matter to you that the nose isn't right, then great! If it's not a big deal to you, then by all means buy, build, and be happy. For some of us who are big fans of the airplane, this *is* a consideration. And for me personally (see my previous post), it's not so much the fact of the matter, but the way it's been (mis)handled. Don't say you're going to do something, then not do it, then try to justify your change of mind by telling your customers it just doesn't matter. I don't care if the prop blades of the Hasegawa Fw190D-9 are .003 mm too narrow at the root. Makes not the first iota of difference to me. But it does to some people, and I'm perfectly okay with that. If they want to jump on Hasegawa because of it, and they have data to back up their claims, then more power to 'em. Makes no difference to me either way, but I'm not going to applaud Hasegawa for putting out the kit with an error that they knew about but chose not to fix (especially if they'd said they were going to fix it).

So, if you like the Eduard MiG-21 kit as I do, then please go forth and be happy with it. I'll still buy them, but this *does* make a difference to some of us. If I'm going to put the money, time, and effort required into really doing this kit up right, I think it's not unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to do at least that much as well.

Agree! Nobody here try to tell you guys to buy or not to buy the new Eduard bis. There are the people who just love this aircraft, and we all trying to share our knowledge through the conversation and through exchange of information or experience. It is absolutely unimportant how somebody feel about this. When somebody like Gabor decide to share his knowledge and hard work and what is more important, very rare knowledge - it is not good. If we don't share our knowledge it is bad again. Here you have a FREE knowledge about some very specific and unpublished issues regarding the 21s and some still complaints about relevance of this??? Whell it is very relevant and any FREE information and knowledge I can get i always relevant. What you gonna do with that knowledge is up to you. You all buying the books and paying a lot of money for some of these... why? If you don't care for minor details and if you don't care for precision than why you are buying these?? Any answer??

However, when somebody give you photos and information for free, you are ready to minimize their importance in order to protect some company which, by the way, is going to make money! Is it so hard to say "Thank you" for great and valuable information and to continue? Are you going to build MiG-21 as Su-11 or vice verse is not important. But please let us who think that all this minor "rivet counter" things are important to exchange information and to help those who are interested to learn something.

Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik

[bungynik]

...and how about sharing this information? :)

Sure, no problem. Just give me a day to prepare the text! We are very interesting because we have used different western equipment on MiG-21s, like LORAP. BL755, Durandal etc. I can give you one interesting information, which is in a way related to this topic. We have chose MF instead of bis, because the fuselage clearance is higher with MF than with bis. bis was the primary target for LORAP, but lower clearance didn't allow us safe use of LORAP container on bis, so we have modified MFs.

Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik

[Berkut]

I was more thinking about the new kit you and Gabor talked about. ;) But Yugo -21's will be interesting as well.

[Dmanton300]

I'll buy it or I won't, and don't blame Eduard for deciding that a fraction of a millimetre isn't worth an extra $100k or whatever the mould would cost. If I do buy it, and if I care to also make the *other* changes Gabor says are necessary, would this kit or another kit be a better starting point?

Shane

Thing is Shane, and counter intuitive though it may seem, the issue here almost isn't that they haven't provided a new fusleage for the kit. The issue is that they made a great song and dance of telling us however many months ago that the bis was going to be delayed until the end of the year because THEIR OWN RESEARCH AND MEASUREMENT had indicated that (and i'm not sure this is 100% but it's in the ballpark) "It's a damned different beast" and they wanted to get it right. So we all cheered and waited patiently for the end of the year to see the model they had spent all those extra months slaving over to give the enthusiasts and Fishbed fans the ultimate bis model. And they didn't bother. They went with a half way house cost-cutting solution and then had the bare faced cheek to tell us, after all the waiting, that the difference essentially doesn't matter. Well obviously it didn't matter to them, because they didn't bother!

And now I suspect that in due course there'll be an update on Eduard's page or newletter berating all of us who are put out about the apparant duplicity in play and calling us "whingers" and dare I say a cartoon or two involving rabbits poking fun at us for having the temerity to put some faith in them all those months ago and then being put out that they didn't repay that faith with a proper job, and try to rewrite their own history to say it's an unimportant difference.

Am I unhappy at the fact that it's inaccurate by design? Yup. But I'm most unhappy at being patronised and talked down to just because they didn't want to go the extra mile. If they'd said "sorry guys, we know it's not quite the same, but we simply couldn't justify the expense to tool up a new fuselage" I'd have grumbled a bit, moaned a bit, and moved on. Instead they reverted to type (and see previous issues they've berated the "whingers" for harping on about before being forced to take action) and behaved in a high handed, condescending way.

But still, if it doesn't bother you or anyone else, fill your boots, buy and enjoy the model (it's a tremendous piece of tooling technically - I've built three so far) and I'd never suggest anything else. Me? I'll wait until I can pick one up cheap and see what can be done to make it RIGHT. I've spent six or seven months telling anyone who will listen how wonderful this model is, and explaining how Eduard have undertaken to get the bis just right, and know how different a beast it really is. And now I feel slightly foolish!

It's an inferior product. Much like Vegemite.

[bungynik]

@Dmanton3000

You are on the point of this fairy tale! Here what I wrote to Eduard blog yesterday, but I'm the only one who didn't get stright the answer from Mr. Šulc:

Wednesday November 23rd, 2011 at November 23 2011, 09:52 PM

bungynik says:

While you say that it was not economical matter, I don’t see it that way. It was economical matter and only that. Visible or invisible difference is something that we can not call objective attitude.

As first I do not see why would the bis kit be more expensive than the MF? You have developed the MF from the zero and you are selling it for ~50$. In bis case, you should develop only one additional sprue, so my calculations say that bis development is much cheaper than MF, isn’t it? So why would bis should be more expensive?

But this is not the real problem. Real problem lie in fact that you have had intention to develop the one kit of MiG-21 and than to repack it under different designation, eg. bis, PF, PFM, R, where your guideline was the KP, Academy attitude to this particular subject. You have made one very good and accurate MF kit to attract the customers and you will use the glory of that kit to sell the rest of the 21′s family. In between, modelers have started to rise the questions about the bis and about the differences of bis and MF. Now you have to decide, weather to invest more money and to develop the new bis fuselage, or to go with previous plan of making money, without further spending of money. The time frame have its own influence I suppose, but not even close as MONEY.

Now, I would like to explain something. I am very much in MiG-21 and I think that I can call myself the MiG-21 freak. So, personally, I do not like your attitude and I do not like your explanation. You are making the model kits to make a profit and not because you are very enthusiastic… maybe you are at the beginning. So it would be honest from you to say that it was the strict business decision, instead of some strange story about visible or invisible differences.

Frankly, the real difference between the two versions is not significant and I am sure that if you put the two kits side by side, most of the modelers will not notice the difference. Even when I point on intake ring, some will need time to notice that. Not too many freaks around. 99% of modelers are going to be happy with new intake lip ring. After all mistakes made by Academy and KP, they can live very easy with that. And if your BUSINESS decision was based on that, it is fully acceptable. The rest of us that belongs to 1%, will have to obey and to accept that.

In one review of your MF I have read the opinion of reviewer which appear to be the very truth: “But this is the double-edged sword… from this moment onwards, modelers will not forgive any mistakes and will expect nothing less, than what Eduard gave us with this model… nothing less than perfection.” And Niko (Nikola) is even bigger freak on MiG-21 subject than me and I suppose much more flexible on accepting minor mistakes on kits. He is the old style modeler who making the needed parts by himself and enjoys in correcting the kits.

You have spoiled us somehow and now you have to live and to deal with that. As for Gabor, I have more than one debate with him on your MF subject, when he tried to protect you and some of your minor mistakes, but Gabor in most cases knows what speak and very rare he speak about something he do not know. I can say that, because my knowledge on MiG-21 allows me to claim that. So your title radiates with vanity in this case and it’s not fair.

Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik

[su27rules]

Hi su27rules,

Our first set of MiG-21 bis with the Lazur system, the Type 75A version had the same hubs as the MF with the cutouts. Only the true Type 75AP's (our RSBN equiped aircraft) had the version as on the bis fighters.

Best regards

Gabor

Thank you Gabor!!

And now I am in worry will Eduard give us correct main wheel hubs in box ??

Edited November 24, 2011 by su27rules

[Laurent]

And now I am in worry will Eduard give us correct main wheel hubs in box ??

Perhaps they'll give PE hubs to glue on the injected hubs ?

[Berkut]

Gabor (or anyone else for that matter), do you have illustration of the different airbrakes?

[pollie]

It was modifies in Yugoslavia by VOC (Aviation Test Center).

Modified yes, but in which Soviet factory was it built?

[ya-gabor]

Thank you Gabor!!

And now I am in worry will Eduard give us correct main wheel hubs in box ??

It was/is in the MF and SMT kit already. It is part D13 for use on the bis (it could have been on other types too, like late SMT or late MF's, but we did not have those so I could not comment on that). The D 12 "object" is what the main wheel hub looks like on the MF. The preplanning for the kit was exceptional and a lot of the parts that you get on the sprues actually belong only to future versions or specific and very particular types. It is perfectly understandable for a Czech producer to include specific parts for the Czech N version of which if I am right there were just a dozen examples. It was a very minor modification, fraction of a millimiter in size but still it was worth making all the press tools. If it was a Hungarian producer I am sure that he would prefer to issue specific local version (of which he has tonns of information, like the IFF conversion set) and not realy care about the Yugoslav conversion for recce fo the MF (or that special Finnish AF version of the bis).

In making the MiG-21 bis kit I think we had a common aim with Eduard: to make a perfect bis kit. I feel this is a personal failure for me, not to have been able to convince the decision makers at Eduard to make all the necessary changes for it to be a true MiG-21 bis and at the same time correct some of the mistakes of the MF fuselage with a new tooling. It would have been nice to build a MiG-21 bis straight out of the box and to know that it is a perfect bis. 97% of the modellers who just want a bis kit (and completely ignorant of the differences) would have been just as happy with it as they will be now with this version but the rest would have know that at last here is the ultimate bis kit in 48 scale (who knows to be followed in 72nd, 144th . . .) It is sad.

Best regards

Gabor (the Gabor's nose owner) :)

[Laurent]

Modified yes, but in which Soviet factory was it built?

You mean Moscow or Gorky ? did Yugoslavia have Gorky-built MFs ? looking at the shape of the periscope and at the Novinky article, I'd say Moscow but I may be saying something silly.

[bungynik]

Modified yes, but in which Soviet factory was it built?

This on photo (22867) was the one of six MiG-21MFs delivered to YAF in January 1975 Evidence Numbers 22865-22870, manufactured in Gaz 21 Gorky factory.

But there was one MiG-21M 22823 which was active until 2007 and equipped with LORAP. Yugoslav MiG-21M (25 aircraft) were received with R-11R2S-300 engines, but very soon these engines were changed on all M with R-13F-300. M version was manufactured in Moscow's Znamya Truda (Gaz 30) factory.

Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik

[Laurent]

[bungynik]

As far as I know Laurent, not all Gorky MFs are manufactured as the latest Czech aircraft, so called "šedivky". Czech AF has received latest batch of MF from Gorky's latest lot of MF. Early Gorky production MF are the same as GAZ 30 MF's. Znamya Truda started production of MiG-23 so the MiG-21 production is transferred to Gaz 21. We have received our MiG-21MF in January 1975, so I suppose that they were produced earlier and they were from the earlier batch. Cockpit is also of early type MF, not like on Czech MF-75.

LORAP control box on MF.

Edited November 24, 2011 by bungynik

[bungynik]

And this Eduard marking of bis with a capital letter BIS is anoying. Soviets have used bis on lot of aircraft and it was always written with small letters, never in capital. And there is there is the reason for that. If Russians using the letters for designating their airctafts, this letter always have a meaning e.g. it is acronym: (Р)R-Разведчик M-Модернизированный Ф(F)-Форсированный etc. But when they using the word it goes with small letter - so it is "бис" and not "БИС"! You don't need some Finns to explain you something that you might find in any Russian manual on the MiG-21bis Изделие 75. It was standard practice in USSR. In that manner you could accept MIG instead of MiG!

Edited November 25, 2011 by bungynik

[Tango]

You mean Moscow or Gorky ? did Yugoslavia have Gorky-built MFs ? looking at the shape of the periscope and at the Novinky article, I'd say Moscow but I may be saying something silly.

Laurent, in the Novinky article are not described general differences between Moscow and Gorki production. It shows difference between Moscow built MF's, delivered to Czechoslovakia in years 1971 - 1974 and the last batch of 20 Gorki built MF's, delivered 1975. That time the main production program of Gorki plant were 21bis's, so this the last batch planes have some features, typical for bis.

It is perfectly understandable for a Czech producer to include specific parts for the Czech N version of which if I am right there were just a dozen examples.

Just ten. Original plan was to rebuild 12, but the last two were not modified because of budget cuts. Two of them were soon destroyed in mid-air collision, so only eight lived to see end of service in Czech AF.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Tango

[dehowie]

To play the devils advocate against all the sinister Eduard are a bunch of scheming liars..

So some time ago Eduard believe there is sufficient difference to warrant a new fuselage mould.

On subsequently measuring the real deal they find that the differences are far less than they first imagined.

After discussions about the BIS( yes I can't believe someone has cracked the sads over the use of capitals!) they decide that simply moulding a new nose ring will

A) Make the two kits look different enough to be able to see the diff between an MF and a BIS.

B) for the majority of the community be a reasonable BIS.

C) make the kit cheaper as a new tool fuselage is not required. Remembering that the tooling cost would need to be recovered either off just the BIS or over all the 21 range. So we end up with all 21'kits being pricier or making the BIS considerably pricier maybe to the point it's so unprofitable as to cancel that version.

D) for the totally serious 21 a holic will pay the extra to some aftermarket company who will make a nose replacement in resin. A considerably better and cheaper option to Eduard I'd imagine.

Don't mean to be brutal but some people should really grow up..

Model companies are business's with employees who get paid and have families. They are not charities here to serve and dissolve because you demand they retool a new fuselage at considerable expense to everyone with higher kit prices etc. Nor should they be locked into a poor financial decision when after more information come to light(measuring) they decide on a different course of action.

With the majority of modellers not really that concerned or knowing for that matter about a .4 mm difference in the nose diameter I'm sorry but the companies will always make decisions that at some point revolve around finance.

If they have changed there mind because they believed after measuring then that is their prerogative. People carry on like it is there god given right to determine who is honest or not based on little or no information and more importantly on what they want.

I say grow up and be glad we have an awesome Mig-21 to start with..as for the BIS(lol) if you love your 21's so much go buy a resin nose and put in some elbow grease but remember the majority of people,who will buy the kit will not know the difference between the two but they will appreciate the saving..

[pollie]

This on photo (22867) was the one of six MiG-21MFs delivered to YAF in January 1975 Evidence Numbers 22865-22870, manufactured in Gaz 21 Gorky factory.

This particular aircraft should have been built at GAZ-30 judging by the constructionnumber but it has a GAZ-21 mirror on the canopy. It probably received a different canopy somewhere during its service life. It would be interesting to know when the photo was taken.

But there was one MiG-21M 22823 which was active until 2007 and equipped with LORAP. Yugoslav MiG-21M (25 aircraft) were received with R-11R2S-300 engines, but very soon these engines were changed on all M with R-13F-300. M version was manufactured in Moscow's Znamya Truda (Gaz 30) factory.

Serial 22823 was indeed built in GAZ-30 but is an MF and not an M!!!

[Jennings]

Don't mean to be brutal but some people should really grow up..

Don't mean to be brutal, but perhaps you should keep your opinions about other people to yourself, especially when you don't know a single one of us in person. I wonder if you'd have said that to any of our faces standing in the same room at a model club meeting? I doubt it.

As I said before, just because YOU don't know or care about the difference is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. If you think it's silly, then please, right this very minute, stop reading the thread and peddle your wares elsewhere.

And for the record, I *can* believe someone is getting "cracked" for using "BIS" instead of using the correct 'bis'. I can't believe you used "Mig" instead of "MiG". An ancient Chinese proverb says "The beginning of wisdom is calling a thing by its proper name."

[toadwbg]

Dehowie- thanks, that needed to be said. Hopefully there will be no flame war here.

Since it is Thanksgiving weekend here in the US, I want to say thanks to a lot of people on this subject:

- thanks to Eduard for their Mig 21 line!

- thanks to the individuals on this forum who have done the research to illustrate this differences of a bis

We can agree to disagree and vote with your wallet.

[mingwin]

generally, modellers who doesn't pay attentions to that kind of details will not buy eduard's MiG's... he'll buy Academy's or Revell's... far more cheaper! (at +-15-20$ ea vs 50$ for eduard's)

[Dmanton300]

I say grow up and be glad we have an awesome Mig-21 to start with..as for the BIS(lol) if you love your 21's so much go buy a resin nose and put in some elbow grease but remember the majority of people,who will buy the kit will not know the difference between the two but they will appreciate the saving..

But that's exactly what we DON'T have at the moment, as the previous RESEARCH clearly shows. What we have is an awesome MiG-21MF & SMT, and a cheaped out attempt at a bis where corners have been cut and excuses made.

You know, you can tell us to grow up all you want, but none of it changes the fact the what Eduard are trying to peddle is signally NOT a MiG-21bis. See that research thing I previously alluded to. Now, would I tell you not to buy it? Nope, if you're not bothered and willing to accept a halfway house job (as we all do from time to time) then buy and enjoy. But please, don't presume to tell me or the others on here that DO care to grow up, that's insulting and patronising, and more indicative of your intolerance for views at odds with your own than ours.

I do love my MiG-21's, and I fail to see why I should be expected, when I'm already spending US$60-70 for a model, to fork out yet more JUST TO CORRECT THEIR MISTAKE THAT THEY KNEW ABOUT ALREADY. I'm actually cynical enough to think Eduard may even release a Brassin resin nose at some point!

I have no real problem with your opinion, I do have a problem with the implied insult and derision of me for having a different one. An opinion adds something to the debate, your attitude toward us doesn't. Please, leave the insults and derision to Eduard, they'll be along shortly and they have a long history of doing so.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Dmanton300

[Thomas]

I'm actually cynical enough to think Eduard may even release a Brassin resin nose at some point!

I think this is an excellent idea!

Why?

It keeps the cost of the kit "low" and for most of the modellers the kit is O.K. as is.

For the die hard rivet counters they have a solution on hand.

It is tooling-wise cheaper than cutting another steel mould and the chance that the replacement will fit the base kit is high.

The only thing I would ask for is that would keep the price for such a set low.

Thomas

[pollie]

It keeps the cost of the kit "low" and for most of the modellers the kit is O.K. as is.

For the die hard rivet counters they have a solution on hand.

It is tooling-wise cheaper than cutting another steel mould and the chance that the replacement will fit the base kit is high.

The new MiG-21bis should be very cheap. It only has one new sprue, all the others in the box are from the MF........

[ijozic]

If they have changed there mind because they believed after measuring then that is their prerogative. People carry on like it is there god given right to determine who is honest or not based on little or no information and more importantly on what they want.

I say grow up and be glad we have an awesome Mig-21 to start with..as for the BIS(lol) if you love your 21's so much go buy a resin nose and put in some elbow grease but remember the majority of people,who will buy the kit will not know the difference between the two but they will appreciate the saving..

Opinions are like a-holes - everybody's got one. And your guesses about how and why Eduard did something is as good as anybody else's - still just guesses. So, sorry, but IMHO the attitude where you're presenting your views as something that is (or should be) shared by the majority (the "know-it-all" thing) is not very helpful in quieting things down.

Edited November 25, 2011 by ijozic