Aggressor Supporter Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 wow, this thread has really taken a turn for the worse... :( With the inevitable Super Hornet vs Tomcat discussion and the animosity between the two camps noticeable the world over, it's not surprising. Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 88 Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) Duh, we all know the mighty 'Cat has retired. And, we all understand that all great airframes sooner or later have to retire, replaced by a better weapons system. What many of us struggle with is the replacement of the Tomcat by a system that is less capable in many of the arenas that make a fighter/attack aircraft great. I never heard of an aircraft becoming famous because it only needed twelve hours of maintenance for each hour in flight. Maybe the Hornet will be the first. Below are two photos. The first depicts a Hornet struggling toward Mach. The other depicts a Tomcat trying to avoid accidentally passing thru Mach. Well of course the Super Hornets maintenance time doesn't matter to you, you don't fix airplanes. As long as it goes Mach 2 then that airplane is the best in the world. I haven't said it in a while, but I'll refresh: having gone to war with an airwing that had Tomcats, and then again with Super Hornets, we were way better with the Rhino's - even the Fallon records show that. Spongebob Out. Glad we have Spongebob give us his real world experience with both aircraft. I'd rather hear his opinion than a guy who takes pics and is an armchair dogfighter. I should have known better than to post that article because the Tomcat boys would have a field day. I thought it was an interesting article with Lockheed doing the used car salesman thing.... Once again this shows that the pro Tomcat boys will keep whining about the Tomcat's replacement. Get over it the Tomcat is gone. And to conclude this post, I'll leave this as a token of my appreciation for the Tomcat guys ruining this thread: Edited March 25, 2007 by Super Hornet 88 Link to post Share on other sites
Waco Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 F-14, when you only care enough to send the second best. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeyc5usaf Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) I'd rather hear his opinion than a guy who takes pics and is an arm chair dogfighter. Edited March 25, 2007 by mikeyc5usaf Link to post Share on other sites
VFA-103guy Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 This whole thread is stupid. I just farted.. Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 For God's sake Brian, what did you eat ? Sure the hell wasn't soup ! Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
Rhinotank Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 No doubt, that is based on your extensive hours flying a fighter. Congratulations on one of the most inane posts ever in this forum. I would comment on it, but this says it so much better. By the way, welcome to the ignore list.Regards, Murph Golf Clap from the Central Valley. And there was much rejoicing... Tank Link to post Share on other sites
ChernayaAkula Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Now, where's Trigger when you need him? If I recall correctly he saved one of "these" treads with some pics of nice-to-look-at womenfolk! Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat Fanatic Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Well of course the Super Hornets maintenance time doesn't matter to you, you don't fix airplanes. As long as it goes Mach 2 then that airplane is the best in the world. Glad we have Spongebob give us his real world experience with both aircraft. I'd rather hear his opinion than a guy who takes pics and is an armchair dogfighter. I should have known better than to post that article because the Tomcat boys would have a field day. I thought it was an interesting article with Lockheed doing the used car salesman thing.... Once again this shows that the pro Tomcat boys will keep whining about the Tomcat's replacement. Get over it the Tomcat is gone. And to conclude this post, I'll leave this as a token of my appreciation for the Tomcat guys ruining this thread: How long did all the old Phantom Phans whine when their favorite jet went the way of the Dodo? At least they had the luxury of knowing that the Phantom's replacement was superior in every way, and that at least the Fleet would be in good hands when the Phantom was gone. We Tomcat fans have no such reassurance. Boeing lied, cheated, bribed, and stole every which way they could think of to get the Super Hornet into production. But, that being said, the Super Hornet (Block III especially) is turning into a pretty seriously capable aircraft. But it's still no Tomcat. I still like to wonder just how capable the Tomcat might've become if it had been upgraded to the same extent as the F-15, 16, and 18. As for maintenance, don't forget that the bulk of the Tomcat fleet was designed in an era when maintenance costs took a back seat to capability, and it was just assumed that parts would fail and be replaced often. Also, don't forget that most of the Tomcat Fleet was between 20 and 30 years old on top of the fact that it was high maintenance to begin with. If a certain someone by the name of Cheney hadn't killed the F-14D program, the fleetwide conversion to the F-14D spec would have made the Tomcat far, far more competitive in terms of MMH/FH. And also, don't forget that in 2003 there was an F-14A squadron that acheived a 100% mission readiness rate (I don't think it was Full Mission Readiness, though)over the course of their deployment. I've not yet heard of a Super Hornet unit matching that. :) Link to post Share on other sites
Bandwagon 106 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) Wow! It's Sunday morning, I've lost an hours sleep due to the clocks going forward, I've a snorting cold. What could brighten my day, my favourite website. What do I find? The old Tomcat vs Superhornet squabble. Two aircraft I am building right now, enjoying each step, not even thinking about real world stuff like :- The Tomcat is retired The Superhornet will be OOD in 10 years The SH is too slow, the F-14 is too fast and so on. Should this thread effect my feelings on these two great aircraft? Absolutely not. Phantoms, Intruders Corsairs and Skyhawks are still being built at my house, whether the US flies them or not. I am a modeller, not an aviator, therefore I could not give a flying one whether one aircraft is older, less capable, more capable, more colourful... Whatever. My only concern is that kits and decals will keep coming out for both these wonderful machines, and other jets from all nations and air arms. Joel Edited March 25, 2007 by Bandwagon 106 Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) Strewth. The same sort of argument is raging down under with all the "experts" (F-111 fans vs those who realise they are falling apart) verses those who realise the recent F/A-18F purchase is going to be good. Then there is the RAAF should have F-22's (even if they buy only 30 - a 30 ship A/F to defend Australia???) and those who accept the F-35 is the way forward argument. Heady days... :) MikeJ Edited March 25, 2007 by madmike Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I like pointy airplanes...........Just thought I would say that before the big lock down. :) Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I like pointy airplanes...........Just thought I would say that before the big lock down. Lori likes pointy flying objects as well, but the point is at the back and the flames come from the front.... Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Damn. Why did we ever go and buy those bloody Bugs... Should've get some used Tomcats and do a complete mid-life extension/system updating here at the Valmet aircraft factory!! Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Lori likes pointy flying objects as well, but the point is at the back and the flames come from the front.... And they don't HAVE flaps but they DO flap ! Here, there be Dragons ! Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
Bandwagon 106 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Golden ones, perhaps? Joel Link to post Share on other sites
Sig Saur & Son Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) Wow, what a discussion. All because the Tomcat went out at the top of its game, replaced by a less capable airframe. I'll give you the maintenance factor. However, the SH falls way behind, (no pun intended), on speed and range. Still two crucial factors in making a successful fighter and attack aircraft. Now I hope you guys commenting about the SH have stick time. Remember, according to Murph, unless you have flight time in a fighter you can't comment. Kind of like not being able to talk politics unless you're a politician, or bad mouthing the cops unless you are a cop. Whatever you do, don't comment on sports unless you've played the game. Sorry if I hurt your feeling by proclaiming Naval Aviators as the best in the world. The point I was trying to make, it does not matter if they fly the Tomcat or SH, their skill and training makes up for any shortcomings in equipment. Let's face it, Naval Aviators spend much time deployed to a little postage stamp at sea. They do not have the luxury of returning to a golf course better known as an AFB. I know I've ****** more people off and I don't really care. Don't look at my pix and don't buy my books. I've managed to somehow survive this many years and retire at age 53 without your support. I'll muddle through for a few more years. Hey, it's a beautiful Sunday here in South Central PA. I have better things to do. Have a great day and drive carefully. Edited March 25, 2007 by Sig Saur & Son Link to post Share on other sites
hatchet Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I just farted.. I know Link to post Share on other sites
VFA-103guy Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) WOW... I knew the competitive nature between USN and USAF pilots was somewhat serious, but this is rediculous. I think Dave's comment was based on his personal dealings with Naval Aviators, and was not intended to belittle USAF pilots. It did surprise me to see how defensive the USAF guys got about Dave's comment. I mean, c'mon, you guys must take much worse bantering from Navy air crews. I've seen it 100 times at the Oceana O'Club when the guys from Langley come to town, it's like "smack talk central" between the Navy and USAF guys. Sure some fights broke out, some bottles broken, and so on, but at the end of it all, they all play for the same team. I know for a fact that Navy air crews have a great respect for F-22 pilots, although they'd never admit it in public. I think all pilots as well as WSO's are great no matter what jet they fly....even the USAF guys. You want to stop all this "my jet is better than your jet" crap? Then don't post useless threads like this, thinking you're doing the modeling world a favor by sharing a piece of information that in itself is relatively useless (especially to model building). I just farted again.. Edited March 25, 2007 by VF-103guy Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I mean, c'mon, you guys must take much worse bantering from Navy air crews. It's one thing for them to say it, it's quite another for somebody who's experience in flying consists of badgering the flight attendant for more peanuts to say it. I would imagine there are quite a few Brit, Israeli, Russian, Dutch, etc... pilots that would disagree with the remark also. Regards, Murph Link to post Share on other sites
yardbird78 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Surprised this thread hasn't been locked down yet, but I guess there hasn't been too much blood letting and profanity has been fairly minimal, soooooooooooooooooooo... I have spent a lot of time dealing with statistics and have come to one particular conclusion that I doubt will get much argument. Consider any given argument with a large collection of statistics, if you emphasize those that support your arguement and ignore those that don't, you can make "YOUR" argument justify just about anything you want. The opposition can take the same raw data and make it support their side of the argument. Conclusions: 1. The Tomcat and Super Hornet are both very good airplanes. 2. There are distinct differences, but each is still good. 3. The USN has very good pilots 4. The USAF has very good pilots 5. Now, can't we all just shake hands and be friends? Darwin Link to post Share on other sites
VFA-103guy Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 It's one thing for them to say it, it's quite another for somebody who's experience in flying consists of badgering the flight attendant for more peanuts to say it. I would imagine there are quite a few Brit, Israeli, Russian, Dutch, etc... pilots that would disagree with the remark also.Regards, Murph Ok Murph..being a prior military guy, I can see where you're coming from to a point. Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I remember in the '70s I had a new Trans Am. Kick-*ss car, took no prisoners on the street, and all the ladies were swooning. Sure, I had to spend long hours under the hood, and that old Quadrajet was a pain, and yes 11 MPG sucked, but man oh man did it turn heads and impress people. My Trans Am still turns heads, and I still spend hours under the hood keeping it tuned, but it would regularly get it's butt kicked on the streets 30+ years later by more modern cars. Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel_B Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Tomcats vs. Super Hornets... Anyone else think we oughta just stick to less-controversial subjects, like politics or religion? Daniel Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 88 Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) You want to stop all this "my jet is better than your jet" crap?Then don't post useless threads like this, thinking you're doing the modeling world a favor by sharing a piece of information that in itself is relatively useless (especially to model building). Then why did you submit 5 posts in this "useless" thread? Your posts in this thread were relatively useless. This thread started going down hill once Dave got his cheap shot at the SH. And now the thread has degenerated into a my pilot is better than your pilot thing..... Edited March 25, 2007 by Super Hornet 88 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts