Andre Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 And sorry, too many offtopic comments from me on a modeller-forum. Not at all! After all, your comments are pertinent to the subjects we love to model. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floggerman Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Yes and it's funny that the two-seaters don't have them. They had (retrofitted). http://home.snafu.de/veith/MiGs/mig21UM-229-JG3.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobertS Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) They had (retrofitted). http://home.snafu.de/veith/MiGs/mig21UM-229-JG3.jpg Good point! NVA-LSK was a kind of exception. They had these even on MiG-21PF > ...retrofitted on regular overhauls in GDR It is very interesting, there were many HuAF MiG-21UM on overhaul in the GDR in the very late '80s, they came back without these plates > ( WP's standardization <_< ) Late production MiG-21UM - 516999505, 1986 delivery, arrived with Soviet camo, with 21bis-wing - without the plates under aux.inlet > Edited September 28, 2011 by RobertS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 They had (retrofitted). http://home.snafu.de/veith/MiGs/mig21UM-229-JG3.jpg In DDR perhaps but go Airliners.net and type MiG-21UM. The majority of UMs don't have the anti-FOD thingies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Dear All, The flare dispenser on the MiG-21 was an Afganistan conversion and not an accessory provided with the MiG-21 kits! This photo has surfaced on a Russian site with the comment that it was used only on a few aircraft as a field conversion. The Russians in view of the danger from the Stinger and other shoulder lanched SAM added flare dispensers to everything! The early Mi-8, Mi-17 and Mi-24 dispensers were simply straped on! They were never part of the Hip, Hind package. Some field modifications were later used and adopted on production lines. So it is now standard on the helicopters but on the MiG-21 it was too late in its life. It was no longer in production and there was no need for its adaptation. Concernign the fence under the auxiliary air intake Yes some Hungarian AF aircraft were on general overhaul in the GDR but only very few. An overhaul is not equivalent with addopting all the required buletin conversions. When processing an order (from an Air Force) for an overhaul, the company doing it will do only those modifications which the orderer asks for and what is more important for which he pays!!! This is work and you have to pay for any work (any additional work too) carried out on the aircraft. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobertS Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) not an accessory provided with the MiG-21 kits! Why? Would you like to wait(and pay?) for an aftermarket company? For me it is better to see it in the Eduard box. Dear All, The flare dispenser on the MiG-21 was an Afganistan conversion and not an accessory provided with the MiG-21 kits! " Балки АСО-2И (с ИПП-26 или ПРП-26) устанавливались справа и слева под фюзеляжем в местах, предусмотренных для подвески пороховых ускорителей. Обычно устанвливался режим отсрела, заранее установленный на земле, запускаеый кнопкой запуска ускорителей на передней панели вверху слева. Прекращение отстрела производилось кнопкой "сброс ускорителей" на левой горизонтальной панели. Не знаю когда, но перед нами (1983) самолеты 145 иап (Ивано-Франковск) уже были доработаны. На обычных самолетах боевых частей доработка не производилась (видно было не до войны!). У нас эта доработка выполнялась за 3-4 месяца до отлета в Афганистан. " as a field conversion. 'Conversion' made at home base Bereza(927.IAP)... quick translate by: My link " I do not know when, but in front of us (1983) aircraft 145.IAP (Ivano-Frankovsk) has been finalized. " " We(927.IAP.) performed this refinement for 3-4 months before departure to Afghanistan. " that it was used only on a few aircraft At least 145.IAP., 927.IAP confirmed - these "few" aircraft were more, than all HuAF MiG-21bis's then <_< (one squadron in the 'Soviet Top-Gun' in Mari flew on MiG-21bis to 1987, they carried - and used - the flares also) but on the MiG-21 it was too late in its life. It was no longer in production and there was no need for its adaptation. 773.IAP. Damgarten(GDR) - MiG-21bis 1973-86 104.IAP. Monito(Mongolia) - MiG-21bis 1974-89) etc. there was no need for its adaptation. The Cold-War ended a bit later <_< Many of the operational MiG-21s in the VVS in mid-late '80s were 'mud-movers' like their units in Afghanistan. If the worst happen, they need the flares... Edited September 28, 2011 by RobertS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Dear Robert, "an accessory provided with the MiG-21 kits" I am not speaking about the plastic Eduard kit but of the real aircraft which have "kits" sold with the aircraft containing a lot of things including additional spare parts, pylons, control systems, manuals, individual tool kits(not plastic), different covers, ladder . . .!!! The flare sets were not provided with the aircraft when delivered from the aircraft manufacturing plant! Please have a look into the list of "extras" provided with every REAL AIRCRAFT after all you seem to know everything! This flare dispenser was not part of the package! "field conversion" Something which is not installed by the manufacturing plant as part of the standard aircraft but added later depending on requirement or ordered by the manufacturer/designer. In Afganistan (partly as a response to the lessons learned in the early days of the war) many conversions were carried out to almost all aircraft types operated by the Russian AF in Afganistan. Many of the aircraft arriving as a replacement unit had some (to be more precise MANY conversions, as for instance with the Su-25) conversions already carried out before departure to Afganistan. This did not mean that these modifications were implemented in all service units of the Russian AF or airforces of the War Pact! People tend to forget that there is a cost (very big one) of operating an AF and also to do the necessary maintenance. Please read some history books where it is clearly shown that many conversions available at the time were not introduced on service aircraft even if they could have saved the life of many, made aircraft operation more efficient, precise . . . Please have a look at the field conversion by the US forces in Afganistan today. They are all carried out as a respons to particular enemy actions of today! The military mind works in a different way and introduces new designes only when forced to do so, confronted by new situation or has to money to buy it. As to the Eduard kit (and after all this is why we are all here (or is it???)) Yes, it could have many additional bits and pieces to serve all requirements and wishes. In case of the MiG-21 bis they would require one or two additional frames of parts and then the cost of the basic plastic kit would be even higher (and all the aftermarket manufacturers go out of business). It is not only the cost of producing the new parts, but also the research (in this case only one poor quality photo), design, manufacture of them that has to be taken into account. Even then there will be still some people complaining that so and so conversion (field or local conversion, many individual countries added a lot of extras of their own design) was not included in the kit. Every one would like to build his favourit subject (particular aircraft) and will be looking for everything that goes on it (extra parts, decals . . .) To produce this kind of kit is not possible (you dont have a FW-190 kit which has all the extra parts for every type)! One can manufacture a kit that represents a "standard" (if there is such) type. It can be reissued with new decals and some extras (photo etched or resin) to represent individual Air Force, individual aircraft but even then it is not possible to do every version! After that, if you have a need for it and feel the urge to do a special version you will have to produce yourself the extras (flare dispensers) or wait for an aftermarket manufacturer. This is the part of our hobby called MODELLING. And after all this is why we are here!? Best regards and good modelling to all! Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobertS Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Dear Gabor, As I see, you missed the fact - I am one of those here, who try to avoid hard statements with Soviet hardware...I had many 'surprises' in the past. Dear Robert, "an accessory provided with the MiG-21 kits" I am not speaking about the plastic Eduard kit but of the real aircraft which have "kits" sold with the aircraft containing a lot of things including additional spare parts, pylons, control systems, manuals, individual tool kits(not plastic), different covers, ladder . . .!!! The flare sets were not provided with the aircraft when delivered from the aircraft manufacturing plant! Please have a look into the list of "extras" provided with every REAL AIRCRAFT after all you seem to know everything! This flare dispenser was not part of the package! Kind of generalizations. For me it is not so simple, not black or white. Somehow this 'kit-thing' > The flare sets were not provided with the aircraft when delivered from the aircraft manufacturing plant! is irrelevant for me, because of the long period of MiG-21bis deliveries to different countries. Which airfoces got the MiG-21bis as new delivery after, when the flare-launcher became available? In the WP maybe Bulgaria, and some African customers etc... Obviously was not part of the 'kit' for the first operators in the early-mid '70s for VVS and for some non Soviet WP airforces. But: Are you sure, it was not on the offer list for example for the Bulgarians in 1983? Or for some other export customers from the '80s? Maybe not. But I will not say it, while I can not see those papers, and unfortunately I could not check all WP airforces wartime stocks in 1990. Their archives is a different story <_< Also the same with the Soviet AF - we are in 2011, and do not have reliable public data(even ORBAT) for all Soviet units with MiG-21(when-where-subtype-numbers), no personal reports etc. Or can you show me photos of MiG-21's for example from Mongolia based Soviet units - Choibalsan, Nalaich, Monito, Choir - from Soviet Top-Gun etc ??? The 'missing list' is very long...even the exact subtype is question in 2011. While I will not see photos and personal reports from the given period I will try to not write hard statements for this topic. Just a 'fragment' from the 'Soviet Top-Gun', guest MiG-21bis unit vs local MiG-23ML's: My link " Thus was born the plan. It was based on the fact that the enemy will expect to use their clear advantage in the range of missiles, and would not shy away from the oncoming battle. Therefore, the most likely situation would be the convergence on a collision course. And there in the distance, when the rocket has been impossible to put the lapel is provided and vice versa. It began at a distance of 40-42 km. After shooting rounds of PRL-2 ASO beams and guns carried out an energetic turn right. In this case a pair of "dive" down to a height of 50 m with a turn of 90 degrees, while the second continued to turn to 180 degrees at its height and lower speed (to the enemy was not too long to catch up). Maneuver with a decrease in the first couple deduced by 'blind' corners and the exchange was to remain unnoticed. Next were three possible courses of events." This did not mean that these modifications were implemented in all service units of the Russian AF or airforces of the War Pact! Did not wrote this - all - nobody here. Especially me... People tend to forget that there is a cost (very big one) of operating an AF and also to do the necessary maintenance. This flare-launcher was a relatively cheap modification. it is clearly shown that many conversions available at the time were not introduced on service aircraft even if they could have saved the life of many, made aircraft operation more efficient, precise Different WP airforces had different behavior with modernisations. Some gave gunpod, dual Monsun missile launch rails for their MiG-21PF,PFM, R-60 for their PFM's etc... Other WP nation used his 1964 PF's in factory form with the 'rubbish' 2xR-3S only to late '80s, or did not equipped their MiG-21bis with dual R-60 pylons, even while those were in stock for their retired MiG-23MF's, did not rewired his MiG-21MF's for R-13M, R-60, while there were large stocks of those weapons in that country....and so on. Please read some history books No, thanks. I prefer pilot-logbooks, old documents, photos, personal interviews with those, who fly on the MiG-21. As to the Eduard kit (and after all this is why we are all here (or is it???)) Yes, it could have many additional bits and pieces to serve all requirements and wishes. In case of the MiG-21 bis they would require one or two additional frames of parts and then the cost of the basic plastic kit would be even higher (and all the aftermarket manufacturers go out of business). It is not only the cost of producing the new parts, but also the research (in this case only one poor quality photo), design, manufacture of them that has to be taken into account. It is not only the cost of producing the new parts, but also the research(in this case only one poor quality photo) Only one public poor quality photo on the Net. Here starts the real research. Not only google 'research' - unfortunately in these days it means only google or only visit a museom for most of the modell making manufacturers. With Soviet hardware, it is not working well... Best regards, Robert Edited September 30, 2011 by RobertS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 As a change to all the bickering some exciting Eduard news: At Eday in Prague this weekend the boxart of the upcoming MiG-21bis was shown: a Finnish example (hi-vis). The Profipack will be released during December of 2011, so could be under the Xmas tree!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Nice, So not early next year afterall. Also, no pics? :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Kewl ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) MiG-21bis, it's official: http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/upcoming/expected_12_2011.pdf Edited November 3, 2011 by pollie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ijozic Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 MiG-21bis, it's official: http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/upcoming/expected_12_2011.pdf Not only that, but some R-27 missiles and the exhausts for the MiG-29 as well (maybe not so relevant for this thread, though). Too bad they didn't fix the MiG-29 R-27 pylons with their release. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
extraneus Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=659406 Edited November 3, 2011 by extraneus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longmc Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I wish they'd do the R-73 Archers! I have the miniarm R-27s and they are super sweet! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ijozic Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I wish they'd do the R-73 Archers! I have the miniarm R-27s and they are super sweet! Definitely, considering that the last ones (I think) were from SOL.. But we'd also need some pylons, as the ones in the kit are for the R-60Ms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 http://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=659406 Very nice options, very happy with the Polish Navy version. Hopefully they will be Cartograf again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Yes the news is good, but . . . As to the side view of the Hungarin Air Force version, there are some comments: - This particular aircraft 1874 did not belong to the Papa based fighter unit! - It was at the time of this paint scheme (in 1991) part of the Fighter Wing based at Taszar. - This, very experimental paint scheme lasted only few days in 1991 for the international air-show. - It was applied with water colour. I have taken photos of it before its very first flight and even then the white areas were not perfect, after the very first flight it lost about 30% of the paint and this process accelerated with every further flight. - One important note to Hungarian AF MiG-21’s. EACH AIRCRAFT HAD A DIFFERENT, INDIVIDUAL UPPER PAINT SCHEME!!!!! I am not sure if Eduard is aware of this fact. - This particular aircraft in all its official documentations, passports is referred to as Izdelije 75 AP! - In MiG designation terminology the BIS name is written with small letters: MiG-21 bis. Apart from this everything else is true, Is there anything else left, that could be true??? This particular plane was used for and painted for dissimilar air-combat practice and demonstration at Taszar AB. It was playing the "aggressor". It is illustrated here as it appeared at the Taszar air show of 1991. It was painted white with water soluble paint and so it came off very fast and was very "dirty" even during the show. The white was applied very crudely and the demarcation borders are uneven and very irregular and not a precise straight line as illustrated on the drawing. The Hungarian national insignia is partly covered over with the white paint, which is also spattered over the camouflage in some places. The dissimilar air combat show was not too persuasive so for the next year a full yellow aircraft with shark mouth version was made, which was a perfect success both for combat and with the public. My personal opinion is that there are many other, and far better or more representative schemes of Hungarian AF MiG-21 bis aircraft. After this I am not sure about the authenticity of the other paint schemes in the Eduard selection! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 After this I am not sure about the authenticity of the other paint schemes in the Eduard selection! Best regards Gabor And i am not sure how your points make the profile it self inaccurate. Should the white be faded? Yes probably, but those kind of effects are very rarely presented on the profiles. Other than Papa issue, other points just might be mentioned in instruction sheet. And as far as i am aware, Eduard is the only company that gives any notes of history about particular aircraft/paintsheme. Your points don't affect in a great deal the model itself. I would recommend sending email to them, after all it would take them around 5 min to correct the text, and i doubt they have started printing instruction sheets just yet. But i understand you being Hungarian, you are interested in getting info/profile extra correct on "yours" plane. I think the options Eduard has provided are very varied and nice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Afterburner's two mega-sheets of MiG-21s should be available just about the same time as the 'bis' kit hits the streets... About half the content of those sheets are 'bis' aircraft. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hello Berkut, Sorry that I did not go into details about the profile accuracy only questioned the notes on the aircraft history. I dont think this is the place to go into details about the paint scheme at the moment since only this one side view is available. But now that you ask there are several points on it too that are wrong, so I can start a list on this too. As to the kit itself I have been in contact with Eduard for some time about the MiG-21 bis and its details, since they did not have this particular type of MiG-21 in the Czech AF while we had two versions of it. All the measurements, details were provided and a lot of discussions to. A detailed list of mistakes on the MF kit was also included. From then on it was up to Eduard to implement the changes (or not)! It is not a question of having all the points right about the Hungarian version but of having an authentic MiG-21 bis with all the necessary changes to the very different aircraft in comparison to the MiG-21MF. Up to now all manufacturers have taken the easy way of producing a MiG-21 bis by adding only a new spine fuel tank to the previous fuselage of MF and SMT. I just hope that this will not be the case this time! Just in case I am doing my own resin update set. Best regards, Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pollie Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Afterburner's two mega-sheets of MiG-21s should be available just about the same time as the 'bis' kit hits the streets... About half the content of those sheets are 'bis' aircraft. :) Yeah, but no stencils :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon Fitzgerald Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Definitely, considering that the last ones (I think) were from SOL.. But we'd also need some pylons, as the ones in the kit are for the R-60Ms. Academys new SU-30 MK has some nice new missiles ;) the new tooled R-73 on this kit are good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'm really enjoying Eduards Mig 21 MF kit right mow- the most fun I've had building a kit i'n years. I'll be sure to pick up the BIS. Accuracy wise: I'm not an expert and am overwelmed with what's i'n the box already as far as detail, fit, and options. So I have no complaints. However I am glad we have other experts out there to point things out and hopefully push Eduard to do things even better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
solher1 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I wish they'd do the R-73 Archers! I have the miniarm R-27s and they are super sweet! I agree, I think R-73s would have been a better release. Who knows, maybe that is the next release in Eduard's list of missiles. The Miniarm R-27s are very high quality, too bad they do not have decals. I also asked Aires about a future release of R-73s and they told me they are on the pipe line, but not soon. Juan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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