1/32 Su-25 frogfoot from china

[Berkut]

What a great turn in events... :D Right now, i "fear" i will buy MiG-23 aaaand Su-25. :D Also, regarding nacelles, i remember there is somebody that measured the nacelles for Su-25 very carefully on russian forum. To make new ones for the zvezda kit. I will dig a bit, and see if i can find those findings.

To be honest it is seen with naked eye (at least for some) that the fuselage is too deep, and that nacelles are wrong. I really hope that atleast nacelles will experience "MiG-23-intakes-makeover".

Speaking of MiG-23 intakes, could you post a pic with a side shot of it, attached to the model. Much appreciated.

[Eastern]

Congrats guys! What is happening here is a real historical moment. I think, for the first time we have here a real constructive and positive interaction with the plastic kit manufacturer. I hope it will become a usual practice in future. I think Trumpeter has a great manufacturing potential and no one kit manufacturer else showed till the moment such vast modeling line in various scales than Trumpeter did. If the dialog continuous in further, and we actually could help Trumpeter's guys to avoid those annoing mistakes they did so far, I'm sure their next projects would have been a real bombshell in the market.

And then I really appreciate Mr. Song's courage of posting those pics of the bird, knowing for sure what effect it could cause.

Cheers and happy modeling!

Alexander.

:D

Edited March 22, 2010 by Eastern

[Berkut]

Found the thread and the pictures of the measured nacelles:

http://s3.postimage.org/j9jvJ-a67a4c557cbc...02bb83a8e69.jpg

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1y_2AJ

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1A5JC9

From this thread, containing many nice pictures:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto...mp;&start=0

[ijozic]

Found the thread and the pictures of the measured nacelles:

http://s3.postimage.org/j9jvJ-a67a4c557cbc...02bb83a8e69.jpg

Great thread. The quoted link doesn't work for me, but, if it was to the picture with engine nacelle measurements, I'll give another link to the photo from the thread.

[Fustercluck]

I like what is happening here now. This is cool.

[JeskiM]

The one main reason I buy Trumpeter and Kinetic is to keep these companies going........I see * a lot * of future potential from them and I love the aircraft they are building, particularly Trump. and their russian subjects.....sounds like good competition (for Hase. Tamiya, Revell, etc) and a niche for these guys. I am guessing that Trumpeter's Stock value is on the rise because of their business plan.....I guess they will eclipse some of the older manufacturers over time, if they don't get in to compete soon with the subjects and style that Trumpeter is willing to take on. I will likely buy the Mig-23/27 and SU-25s when they hit the street.....knowing that investing in them now will reap better rewards later.....not too sure about the other manufacturers and their in-ability to kick out a lot of new production in stuff that I am interested in (American and Russian modern day (Vietnam to Today) jets)

I may not support every kit Trumpeter makes; but I do support their future direction. I like that Song has come to us for opinions and some advice. If we can improve on communications (giving us more info up front on references, earlier in the design process, etc) then this would help us all out and lead to more productivity on this forum on these kinds of topics.

I consider my self to be modeller in the spirit that building models is a fun hobby and a diversion from other realities in life. I like to keep it fun and simple when I can; building my stash, building subjects that interest me. I'd prefer a perfect kit in all manners, but I have built the far less than perfect kits (AModel TU-128 with massive warpage and sink holes, etc.....the worst kit I have ever built and worst looking one on my shelf.....but I built it years ago, and since then, my skills and patience has improved to the point that I brought another one with the pure goal of doing a better job next build). Trumpeter at this point is both a blessing and a curse. They manufacture kits I could only dream of....then they don't get it perfect. At least they have the balls to do it.....................my kind of company !!!

I am not too worried about people like Zacto and the others; they'll always find subjects that need their help; bottoms up for that, thanks guys ... and I'll be there to buy their aftermarket goods from time to time.

As for the kit in question. The detail looks great. I'd like to see a head on shot and one from behind to see the inlets and exhaust. Fix the short/fat issue if you can still do it. and otherwise I am probably sold........Oh yeah I'd like to see a picture of the cockpit also.

- Matt

[Isaac]

Wow this thread is great. Way to go trumpeter and way to go mr song.

[erikztm]

They can and they do. Revell. Their Eurofighter costs half the price (not the same, but half) and aside from the missing engine trunking and weak-ish cockpit, they blow the Trumpeter kit out of the water.

Revell is certainly moving in the right direction with this kit (which needs at least a new nosewheel too BTW), their Tornado, Phantom (sort of) and Hunter, but I am sure you will agree that all of their previous 32nd scale products certainly lacked basic accuracy too. Besides, their large production (re-)runs, customer base and distribution network means they can afford to keep prices lower by moving more volume. What I meant is that no other company has so far dared to tackle the more exotic aircraft like Trumpeter has. There are a lot of people who have been waiting for years for things like a 32nd scale Corsair, Warthog, Buccaneer, Harrier or Jaguar, let alone their russian subjects which nobody else touches. I would praise Revell at least as much if they ventured into tooling something like a nice Mirage F1. Or another Su-25 to get back to this particular topic. That would make a nice comparison even though I am sure they could put it on the market for less. Trumpeter is gambling at considerable expenses and I am sure the Typhoon disaster co-prompted the recent requests for customer input from them. No self-respecting company would like to have that sort of thing happen to them again. And with that said, I loved the MiG23 preview with the old intakes and these new ones make my mouth water even more! Keep up the good work Trumpeter!

P.S. Put the nosewheel left of center on the Su-25 (that issue has not yet been vented here AFAIK)

Edited March 22, 2010 by erikztm

[RedStar]

I am also encouraged by what I'm reading here. Maybe we'll even see a couple of fixes on down the line releases like the Su-24MR and MP - they did it for the big Flanker, so why not some updates on the Su-24!

But the fact that they're taking the critiques and doing something about it - that's big!

Now, the key for us is to be EVEN HANDED about the critiques we share. Let's not use this as an excuse to get the proverbial bit in our teeth.... The more thoughtful and thorough the critiques are, the more likely they are to elicit the desired response!

[janman]

P.S. Put the nosewheel left of center on the Su-25 (that issue has not yet been vented here AFAIK)

I too think nobody hasn't noticed it. I was thinking about it when these photos came out but I wasn't sure about it's position on the model. Now that someone else finally spotted it, I'm very positive it's not like it should be.

[erikztm]

I'm sure they will put it right. It may not be on the drawings they used which tend to focus on the airframe itself.

[Jinxter13]

Well, the above pictures pretty sums up why it looks fat and sits low when looking at the side profile of the kit. It would be more helpful if we have more pictures looking at the side of the kit.

It's kinda foggy, but I see in my crystal ball, some AM guys scrambling right now to get details for a corrected MLG set for a certain 32^nd Su-25...oops the vision just went away , maybe later it will be clearer.

[Almansur]

It gives me great pleasure to hear that Trumpeter is displaying an intention to care and do good in accuracy issues. Zactoman has given an excellent "paper" on research, they would do well by studying it carefully.

Two brief cents:

Research is long, hard work. You can have people and budget to do it internally, with high secrecy, like Tamiya (and Tamiya does have some screw-ups now and then - F-84G tiptanks, Meteor F1 airbrakes, Spitfire cannon blisters...). Or you can use a very wide enthusiast body to help you (for free, even), at the cost of having to show a lot of your work from the very beginning.

Of course there are quite a lot of people who would buy an "approximate" rendering of the real thing, the "it looks like a _____ to me" crowd. But remember that you can please Greeks and Trojans. An accurate model will be bought by both crowds. You decide on your target costumers.

Last Trumpeter model I bought was the Bearcat. Good model. Bad cowling, but fixable with some work. Great show on the Avenger. The Corsair... "nice toy, no model".

The "looks like to me" crowd you already have in the bag.

Want to extend sales?

As in everything in life, you choose, and then you live with the choices.

[mario krijan]

i cannot understand how Trumpeter repeat same basic shape errors from project to project, i know that they launched more and more different kits, but why such hurry????? working without proper research??? Maybe they going on blitz effect on modeling population, Trumpeter knows they are first on market, and looks like Su-25 effect is enough to sell kits!

Serious research work is key to have real replicas! and there is field what they must copied serious players in those fields. like Tamiya, hasegawa and other maufacturers!

[jacksdad]

I am so glad I came across this thread. Firstly because it looks like we are going to get some Soviet stuff in 1/32 (especially the Frogfoot.) But more importantly that a major kit manufacturer is coming on here asking for peoples opinions, which will hopefully fix some issues prior to release.

Mr Song, I salute you.

Lets face it guys, do you see anyone else doing this?

t.t.f.n.

Steve

Edited March 23, 2010 by jacksdad

[madcow]

Not wanting to go into politics here, I think I read in another forum, that being in China, Trumpeter isn't able to get all the information it needs to make an accurate model. Remember the "Great Firewall of China".

Not sure if this is true and if it is, how much it affects the research they do on a particular subject.

Yet, it's truly remarkable that Trumpeter is humble enough to acknowledge it makes mistakes and ask the right people on how to correct them: their customers, some of which have a deep knowledge and resources to help them to make / correct what's needed to get a more accurate model before it hits the shelves :D

Ricardo

[foxmulder_ms]

wrong thread

Edited March 23, 2010 by foxmulder_ms

[frankv74]

:D I am so glad I came across this thread. Firstly because it looks like we are going to get some Soviet stuff in 1/32 (especially the Frogfoot.) But more importantly that a major kit manufacturer is coming on here asking for peoples opinions, which will hopefully fix some issues prior to release.

Mr Song, I salute you.

Lets face it guys, do you see anyone else doing this?

t.t.f.n.

Steve

It would be noce to see all the other manufactures do this.

Frank

[Jeff]

Not wanting to go into politics here, I think I read in another forum, that being in China, Trumpeter isn't able to get all the information it needs to make an accurate model. Remember the "Great Firewall of China".

Not sure if this is true and if it is, how much it affects the research they do on a particular subject.

Yet, it's truly remarkable that Trumpeter is humble enough to acknowledge it makes mistakes and ask the right people on how to correct them: their customers, some of which have a deep knowledge and resources to help them to make / correct what's needed to get a more accurate model before it hits the shelves

Ricardo

Not true. In China, you can still purchase stuff online, such as modeling books, and they only block a few sites.

[madcow]

Roger that.

Ricardo

[jonbryon]

Not true. In China, you can still purchase stuff online, such as modeling books, and they only block a few sites.

'tis true that the firewall is easily circumnavigated (although doing so is illegal). But quite a few sites are censored by it. Hyperscale's discussion forums are blocked, for example. ARC is not.

[Jinxter13]

Thank you Mr. Song for having the guts and and willingness to come here and ask for honest opinions, whether good or bad criticisms come out of it. The modeling world is better today; should more of this occur from other kit makers we can all say a big THANK YOU to you for being the one who started it all . It is one thing to see what kits are being desired and offer them, but it is quite another to decide to do those kits and ask how you can make them better :D . That is taking customer service into a different level altogether.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Angels49

[JeskiM]

Mr. Song,

When you start threads like this here showing these kits in this stage......What exactly are you wanting us to provide you ?

- Criticism of stuff that needs correction ?

- Are you just gauging reaction from the community for likes/dislikes ?

- genuine techincal advise / sources of information

- getting ideas for stuff that needs to be added or future kits/accessories

Or is this just a show and little tell of a future product ?

Answering these types of questions may reward you, your comapny, the finished products, and ultimately the consumers (us).

When you show us a kit in this stage, we fist get very excited about the reality of it, then we start to point to things that need fixing, and if fixed may edge you closer to that elusive perfect kit.......At this stage; what can be fixed ???

AND

What excactly can we provide you to make it the perfect kit ??? can we do that now or at some stage before this ?

I feel your comapny is striving to become the biggest scale model manufacturer in the world.....biggest does not always mean the best (for consumers).....everyone naturally wants the best.

I applaud you for coming here , it's an opportunity to talk to someone on the inside who seems to be able to make an impact....now let's take this to the next level and beat the competition....and make all very happy campers.

- Matt

[Flankerman]

FWIW, here are some (nearly) sideview photos of Su-25's wot I have took....

...if anyone wants to play with them...

Ken

[Zactoman]

...if anyone wants to play with them...

Thanks for posting Ken.

I used the first pic (since it's closest to a good side view) and gave it the same treatment, overlaying the Trumpeter provided drawing:

Same result...

BTW, Mr Song posted a few additional pictures on LSP than he did here at ARC as well as the drawings:

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.ph...st&p=251813